Pastors' Dialogue

A:  Dude, why the long face?
B:  Well, you know my issue.  We're losing members left and right.
A:  Yeah, I didn't want to tell you this, but some more of your people joined our church last Sunday.
B:  Let me guess, family with teenagers?
A:  Yep.  I'm telling you, B.  You've got to go contemporary.
B:  I don't know ...
A:  There's no reason for this!  Let's take a look at this objectively.  One of us graduated first in his class.  You.  One of us has his doctorate.  That would be you.  One of us publishes books on theology.  That would be you also.  One of us is still a legend at the seminary and a brilliant communicator.  You again.
B:  You're a great communicator.

A:  Maybe on practical, common-sense stuff.
B:  Well...
A:  Wait, I have more.  One of us just sold 10,000 copies of his latest book!
B:  Kudos.  The one on Marriage?
A:  My finest work!  And one of us has a growing church of young families and is running about 1300 in Sunday services.
B:  1300?  Really?
A:  Yep.
B:  Well, good for you.  I guess our ministry doesn't relate to today's average church-goer.
A:  But isn't that what we're supposed to be about?
B:  Not following you.
A:  Reaching the community.  Being relevant.  Doing whatever it takes to get people in the door.
B:  Well ...
A:  What?
B:  I don't want to sound like I'm being critical ...
A:  Go ahead.
B:  I DON'T think that's what we're supposed to be about.
A:  Why not?
B:  You just finished a sermon series, right?
A:  Sure, it was my best series yet!  I did a 4 part series on friendships.  It was also our most successful podcast.
B:  What scripture did you use?
A:  Proverbs 18:24
B:  You did 4 weeks on Proverbs 18:24?
A:  Well, you know, there was a lot to flesh out.
B:  I guess so.
A:  What're you trying to say?
B:  Nothing
A:  Alright hotshot, what did you preach on?
B:  I've been going through the 10 Commandments.
A:  Sounds really exciting!
B:  Maybe not.
A:  So, Exodus, I suppose?
B:  Uh-huh - pretty much verse by verse.
A:  See, that's your problem.
B:  What? 
A:  You can't make it so complicated.  People don't have the tolerance for all this weighty stuff.
B:  So I shouldn't bother?
A:  No, that's not what I'm saying.  But maybe instead of going through the 10 commandments, you should talk about just one of them.  Take the one about the Sabbath, that would be good.
B:  Ah, not a bad idea.  Get into the lack of rest among the people - the way we fail to take it seriously?
A:  I was thinking more about focusing on church attendance.
B:  Tell the people at church that they should go to church?
A:  Basically, yeah.
B:  Sounds silly.
A:  But it would be encouraging to them!  And you use that as a springboard to get them to invite their neighbors.
B:  Hmmm.
A:  We had 60 visitors yesterday.
B:  Good for you.
A:  There's a culture out there that reads headlines - they're too busy for the article.  They want sound-bytes.  They can fast-forward through commercials and make phone calls while driving from work to home.  Or maybe I should say, driving from your church over to mine.
B:  Nice
A:  Well, the proof is pretty obvious
B:  What's that?
A:  That you're losing memebers and we're growing.
B:  That's proof?
A:  Yeah
B:  Of what?
A:  That .... how can I say this nicely?  Our message is working better than yours.
B:  OK.  In a sense that's true.
A:  In a sense?
B:  It is working better if the litmus test is people growth and overall attendance.
A:  Yep
B:  I just don't think it's that simple.
A:  Not following you.
B:  OK, let's take C's church.
A:  Forget about it!
B:  No, follow me on this for a minute.  They have 3,000 on a weekend, right?
A:  OK
B:  Does that mean he's doing a better job than you are?
A:  Maybe ... but it doesn't all come down to that.  You're taking it too far.
B:  Does it mean that his message is working better than yours?
A:  His place has a better location than mine.  Shoot, he practically rips off my sermons.
B:  Ok, let me ask you this.  Is it possible for a guy to be in ministry and do exactly what God has called him to do and his church stay tiny?
A:  I .... let me think about that one.
B:  One more.
A:  OK
B:  Is it possible for a guy to have a tremendous success with growth and numbers and programs and get the whole thing wrong?
A:  Wrong?
B:  As far as, what if what is being conducted, isn't really a church?
A:  What do you mean?
B:  I mean, if a church becomes so focused on being attractive to outsiders that it loses the constituent qualities that make it a church.
A:  And those are?
B:  Well, glorifying God, for starters.
A:  Are you saying we don't glorify God?
B:  No, I'm just asking if that is the priority.
A:  Who could make that call?
B:  Good question
A:  I mean, one could say that the guy who is still wearing a robe from the pulpit and getting all doctrine-crazy and losing his membership isn't conducting real church
B:  Huh?
A:  If he's sticking to a rigid system and not reaching the community.
B:  Interesting point.  I think this whole discussion comes down to one fundamental difference.
A:  Which is?
B:  I think the Sunday service should be geared toward glorifying God.
A:  So do I.
B:  And secondly, toward the members of the church.
A:  Christians?
B:  Hopefully so, yes.
A:  Not what one might call 'seeker-sensitive'
B:  Certainly not!
A:  Sounds self-destructive
B:  I just believe the worship hour is for the people of God to come together and worship God
A:  What about visitors?
B:  They're more than welcome!  I love to see visitors, I just don't get as many as you.
A:  Wonder why.
B:  Touche
A:  When would you reach the unchurched?
B:  I'm not saying we can't address them in the service but since you asked, Monday through Saturday.
A:  Really?
B:  In principle, yes.
A:  That explains quite a bit.
B:  I think so, too.
A:  It explains why the church won't be around much longer.
B:  Perhaps not.
A:  I meant your church.
B:  I know.